Landrace Gardening with Joseph Lofthouse!

Carmen: 00:00:24

Welcome to Song and Plants.

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My name is Carmen Porter.

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In this episode, I was joined by Joseph

Lofthouse to explore landrace gardening.

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I decided to include this interview

in the Solanaceae series because it

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seems that the majority of cultivar

development of this family of food crops

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is heavily dominated by institutions

and their emerging technologies.

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Joseph's book, Land Race Gardening,

Food Security Through Biodiversity

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and Promiscuous Pollination,

however, makes cultivar selection

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accessible and irresistible.

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His book has inspired an online community

and organization that promote genetically

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diverse seed saving practices, which

produce locally adapted resilient crops.

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I hope you enjoy our conversation.

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Welcome to Song and Plants.

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Would you mind introducing yourself?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Hi,

I'm Joseph Lofthouse.

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I'm a farmer, plant breeder

that lives up in northern Utah.

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And I'm a yogi.

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I love dancing and singing.

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And so it's beautiful to be on song

and dance, er, song and garden today.

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Song and plants today.

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Carmen: Excellent.

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Well, thank you and welcome.

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Landrace Gardening.

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Would you mind giving a little overview

of what it is and how it works?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Yeah, so land race

gardening is the idea of growing

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plants in a location so that

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they become adapted to the land and

the people that are living on the land.

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And it really works beautifully.

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Well, I define landrace gardening as

plants that are genetically diverse,

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promiscuously pollinating, so that

they can adapt themselves to the local

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ecosystem and the local human community.

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Carmen: Fantastic.

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How do you set up a landrace?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Well, the

number one thing you need to be

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doing is saving your own seeds.

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Because then they can

become locally adapted.

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And rather than trying to keep

things pure and inbred, if you

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allow them to cross pollinate, they

adapt easier to the environment

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and changes in the environment.

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Carmen: So, Saving your seeds for

preserving a cultivar and developing a

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land race, what would be the difference?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Well, so the If

you're trying to preserve a cultivar,

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what you're doing is inbreeding.

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And every time we do inbreeding

on a plant, it becomes a little

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bit weaker, a little bit less

able to deal with the ecosystem.

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And so some of, like, our

beloved heirlooms have been

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inbred for 50 years, 100 years.

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And when I plant them in my garden, they

tend to do poorly, because my garden

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is way different than the gardens

were a hundred years ago in Iowa or

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wherever the heirloom was invented.

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But when I allow those heirlooms to cross

pollinate with each other, then they

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can rearrange their genetics and begin

to get comfortable in my garden again.

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Carmen: So is it kind of like the

first stage, you're allowing them

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to become hybrids, naturally?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, so

naturally occurring hybrids , a

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hybrid might actually do better

or worse in my ecosystem depending

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on, what the parents were.

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On average, the hybrids tend to

perform, like in tomatoes, about 50

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percent better than the heirlooms.

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And so if we're encouraging the natural

hybridization, then our crops tend to

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be more reliable than the inbred crops.

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Carmen: So would your setup be just

plant as much diversity as you can?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Well, I have

two different ways to go about it.

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The first way like when I worked

on watermelon, I gathered the seeds

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from 300 varieties of watermelon

and planted them all together.

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You know, and I had five that actually

survived for me that first year.

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But I also might do it by growing

my favorite squash and, it gets

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cross pollinated by another squash

that isn't quite my favorite.

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And then, you know, just gradual,

gradual select for what does good,

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and especially for what I enjoy

eating, for what tastes lovely.

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One of the big joys of landrace gardening,

or we also call it adaptation gardening,

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is that the plants learn what I like

to eat, and they provide that for me.

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And that partially happens because if

I'm saving seeds from every plant in

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every generation, then I don't want to

save seeds from plants that taste bad.

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I don't want to save seeds, like from a

squash that I can't cut with my knife.

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So all this selection is going on.

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And selection is also going on

for like the bugs and the climate

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and my habits as a farmer.

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And so the plants can really become

adapted to the local conditions

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and my way of doing things.

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My community's way of eating.

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Carmen: And so in the first generation,

the ones that don't grow well just

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won't survive and produce seed.

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Joseph Lofthouse: Correct.

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And sometimes they might put a little

bit of pollen into the patch, Even

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if they didn't produce a seed, they

might put a little bit of pollen,

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and so a trait from that pollen can

show up 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 years later.

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But, generally in the first year,

what's totally unsuitable just dies.

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And then in the second year, you get the

survivors crossing with the survivors.

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And I think of the third year as

the magical year, because by then

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you've got the best of the best

cross pollinating with each other.

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And it can be really

joyful, that third year.

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Carmen: And then how do you maintain it?

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Because when you have those

crossing, do you have to continue

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bringing in new genetics?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Well, I like

to bring in a little bit of

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new genetics from time to time.

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Like if I normally grow 20 squash

plants, I might plant one new

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squash variety just to see if it

likes my garden, if I like it.

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And if I don't, I just

don't save seeds from it.

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But if I do, then I just fold it

in with all the rest of the squash.

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So I like a little bit of diversity.

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Another way I maintain diversity is

by trading seeds with my neighbors.

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Because they're growing the same

species in approximately the same

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climate, with the same habits.

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And so, trading seeds with the neighbors

is another beautiful way to bring

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genetic diversity into my garden.

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Yeah.

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Carmen: So it's a very different approach

in terms of there's no isolation.

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Joseph Lofthouse: Well, I do

a little bit of isolation.

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For example, I don't like my sweet corn

and my popcorn to cross, because then I

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get popcorn that doesn't pop, and I get

sweet corn that is hard and hard to chew.

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And so, you know, I do minimal isolation.

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But I don't isolate my red

sweet corn from my yellow sweet

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corn from my white sweet corn.

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And so my sweet corn ends up being a

mix of You know, just beautiful colors

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and each of the colors has a different

flavor to it, and so I get all kinds of

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joy and happiness out of the flavors.

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And like in the melons, I

select for aromas that are

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just beautiful and amazing.

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So it ends up being really joyful

to eat food because I think part of

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what's going on is if we're loving on

our plants, we're touching them with

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our fingers, we're giving them our

microbes and our DNA, and I think they

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hold onto that and give it back to us.

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I think varieties that have, or,

only touched by metal, you know,

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because the farmer never touches the

squash and never touches the seed.

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And I think that those plants can't

give us as much joy as the plants

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that we actually, you know, are

changing our microbiomes with.

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Carmen: When you mentioned the

watermelons, how long did it take you to

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start getting more than five watermelons?

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Joseph Lofthouse: The second year

did better than the first year.

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But watermelons in my climate are

way outside of their comfort zone.

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And so they're one of those crops

that I'm always, they're always a

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little bit of a struggle for me.

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It's kind of like me

trying to grow an orange.

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It's not going to happen outside

here, I would have to build

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a greenhouse or something.

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But for other crops like the squash

or the melons, the third year is

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really the beautiful, magical year.

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Like when I was growing cantaloupes, the

first year I planted thirty varieties,

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and maybe five of them did okay for me.

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But then the second year, I planted

about three hundred seeds, and there

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were two plants that produced more than

all the rest of the patch combined.

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You know, and then so the third

year, I was harvesting just bushels

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and bushels of muskmelons and they

were ready way before my frost.

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That works particularly

well with the melons because

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they're an outcrossing species.

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The species that are outcrossing are

rapidly rearranging their genetics.

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And so they can really,

really change fast.

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Where something like a, bean,

which is mostly inbreeding.

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Like what happens with those is if I

plant a hundred varieties of beans,

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95 of them just die the first year.

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And then the other, you know, five

varieties, they just keep growing year

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after year and they hardly ever cross.

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But what I do in the case of the beans

is I just watch really carefully to

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see if any natural crossing occurred.

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And if I can identify a natural

cross, then I plant that

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preferentially over the inbred beans.

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Carmen: What would you be looking

for to identify a natural cross?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Well, like if my

beans are always pink, but one year they

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turn out pink with spots on them, you

know, then that would say, oh, here's

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something new I've never saw before.

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It's most likely a hybrid.

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Carmen: You mentioned your

climate where exactly, like what

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conditions are you dealing with?

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Joseph Lofthouse: So, I live at 5, 000

feet elevation up in a mountain valley.

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And it's in the desert, so I

have like 5 percent humidity

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in the evenings, in the summer.

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And the cold air comes down out of

the 9, 000 foot tall mountains that

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are like less than 5 miles from

my garden, all summer, all winter.

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My soil is like clay silt.

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Probably technically it's

called the silty loam.

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And so it really holds on to the

nutrients good, but it also has a pH

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that's really high, and so that tends

to cause problems for some species.

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Oh, and I have unlimited

irrigation water, basically.

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Ha, ha, ha, ha.

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Carmen: do you have a

hard freeze in the winter?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, My

garden is covered with snow

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between November to mid March.

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And our low temperatures might be

around minus fifteen, minus twenty.

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And because we're in a valley, the cold

air will come and it will sit like for

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a week or something before the wind

blows and it warms up a little bit.

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Carmen: What are some of the crops

that you have found to be the

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most successful for land racing?

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Joseph Lofthouse: So, anything

that is promiscuously pollinating.

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So, that would be things like fava beans,

squash, melons, cucumbers, corn, any of

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the brassicas, like that would be cabbage

and mustards and, kale, things like that.

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Carmen: and promiscuously

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pollinating?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Yes.

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So I use the term promiscuously

pollinating because there's a

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term in the seed industry that

is called open pollinated.

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And I want to distinguish what I'm

doing from open pollinated seeds.

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Because, what open pollinated actually,

or what we think it means is like, Oh,

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we don't really know who's the daddy.

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You know, there could be...

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but no, what it actually means is

we've done everything we know how

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to do with cages and isolation

distances to prevent the crops from

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actually crossing with each other.

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They might technically cross with each

other, but if a clone crosses with a

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clone, it's still a clone kind of idea.

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And so I use the term promiscuously

pollinating because it says we

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really do want to encourage that

things are cross pollinating.

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Carmen: Another term that you

mentioned is male sterility.

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Joseph Lofthouse: Eww, yeah.

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Carmen: How

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does that emerge?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Okay, so The seed

industry likes to sell hybrids because

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if they're selling a hybrid, then it's

basically proprietary, you need to

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buy the seed every year from them.

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And so with big fruited, or big seeded

things like squash that produce,

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you know, hundreds of seeds with one

attempt to the pollination, you can

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just do those pollinations by hand.

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But if you start dealing with little

things like carrots or cabbages that

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have these little teeny tiny flowers,

and they produce two or three or four

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seeds, it's really hard to make a hybrid.

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But, what the seed companies

discovered is they discovered if you

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took, like the nucleus out of a say

a cabbage and put it into a carrot

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that it wouldn't produce pollen.

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And so you have a plant

that is male sterile.

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And so then you can just grow a whole

bunch of seed and let the bees do

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the cross pollination because all of

the pollen will come from a different

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variety than the one that is sterile.

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And, So, a lot of the

cabbages and the carrots

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that

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Joseph Lofthouse: are sold as hybrids are

actually using that sort of technology.

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And I choose not to use that technology

in my garden because I like to know

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that my flowers are complete, that

they have the male part and the

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female part that's fully functional.

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Carmen: So if you see it

emerged, you just cull them?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, so when I

originally started growing carrots, I

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just got carrots from the grocery store

and the seed catalog and, I planted

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hybrid carrots and it turned out that

about seventy percent of my seeds

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the next year had that sterile trait.

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And you can see that because the,

flowers were missing the anthers.

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And the anther is the part of the flower

that sheds pollen into the patch.

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And so it was really easy for

me just to pull those out.

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And if I miss a few, no big deal

because there's plenty of pollen

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running around the patch and

they'll get pollinated anyway.

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But it's just something that I watch

for and continuously remove as I see it.

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Carmen: So if that genetics is in the mix,

it will continue into further generations?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Yes.

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And it's really complicated and biology

is fuzzy, but basically once that trait

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gets into a line, it doesn't come out.

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You can't get rid of it without, you

know, killing the plant kind of thing.

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Carmen: But it tends to

be on small flowered...

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Joseph Lofthouse: yes.

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There are no commercial bean hybrids,

I think, because you cross pollinate

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a bean and you get, you know,

three or four seeds kind of thing.

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Carmen: In your book you talk

about the processing of beans.

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Because I know some have problems

with beans, so do you mind just

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touching on that for a second?

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Because I found it really interesting.

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Joseph Lofthouse: So the way that I grow

beans is I plant them all, all many

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different varieties all jumbled up

together, and either the frost kills

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them or they just die in the fall.

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And I let them dry in the field, and

then I pull the whole plant, throw

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it on a tarp, jump up and down on it,

dance if I'm feeling fun and joyful,

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sing a song, and, and, and then You can

just scrape off the plant material and

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the beans are left laying on the tarp.

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And then you can dump them between

a couple of buckets while the wind is

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blowing and all of the chaffy stuff

will fly away, leaving you with beans.

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And then I need to sort them by

hand because sometimes I pull up a

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little piece of the root that has

little pebbles on it or something.

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And if I was being really careful, I

would cut the beans off at the root so

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that I wasn't taking that soil with me.

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And also if I'm being careful, I make

sure there's no pebbles in my shoes

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when I jump up and down on them.

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But usually what happens is I'm

harvesting the beans right before

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a terrible storm is expected.

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And So I'm rushed, and it's like,

just get it done, and we can sort

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them in the kitchen a month from

now when it's warm and toasty.

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Carmen: And you say that they have

poisons or they aren't very digestible.

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So, what do you do?

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Joseph Lofthouse: Beans have, I don't

know the name of the poison, but

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they have a little bit of poison in.

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And we have a long history as humans

of knowing how to deal with beans.

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You soak them.

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That takes some of the poisons out.

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You cook them for a long time at high

temperature, that takes the poisons out.

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But a lot of times, people that haven't

been trained in dealing with beans

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that way, and they'll just take, like

a bean and grind it up and make a

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flour out of it, and make a cookie,

and the cookie is barely cooked,

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and you bite into that cookie and

the poison just pours out at you.

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Maybe I'm a, what they call

a super taster, I don't know.

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But, but those kinds of things are

really annoying to me because we've

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known for thousands of years that

beans need to be cooked really well.

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Well, yeah, so corn really

should be nixtamalized.

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And that is cooking the

corn with an alkali.

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What they call it, calcium

oxide or calcium hydroxide.

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And what that does is it, eliminates a

lot of the toxins that come from mold.

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And it also greatly increases

the vitamin content of the corn.

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And so when corn got taken from the

native places where it was growing and

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it went to the rest of the world, it

caused diseases in people because they

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weren't treating it with the alkali first.

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And, let's see, pellagra, I think

is the name of the disease that,

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that came from replacing whatever

it was in their diet with corn

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: 00:21:17

that hadn't been cooked in alkali.

299

: 00:21:20

And also another thing that cooking

in alkali does is it really enhances

300

: 00:21:25

the flavor of the flour corns.

301

: 00:21:28

Carmen: Do you find there are a lot of

different flavors between the colors?

302

: 00:21:31

Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, there are.

303

: 00:21:33

And some people like one

color better than another.

304

: 00:21:38

And I tend to like a diversity

of colors, a diversity of flavors

305

: 00:21:42

more than I like just the same

old boring flavor every time.

306

: 00:21:47

Carmen: If you're doing a

patch of squash, are you going

307

: 00:21:50

to keep the species separate?

308

: 00:21:52

Joseph Lofthouse: No, I do not

keep species separate, and that is

309

: 00:21:58

because the definition of a species

is two varieties or two plants

310

: 00:22:04

that won't cross with each other.

311

: 00:22:06

And biology is fuzzy, and so once

in a while there will be a cross,

312

: 00:22:12

but I have only seen that, like,

one time in 15 years, between

313

: 00:22:18

the normal squash varieties.

314

: 00:22:22

There are two squash called the cushaws

and the moschatas, the butternuts and the

315

: 00:22:27

cushaws, and I think of them as not quite

separate species, because I have from

316

: 00:22:34

time to time seen a cross between those.

317

: 00:22:37

But for the most part, I just don't

observe that in my day to day gardening.

318

: 00:22:44

Carmen: So is there very

little separation in general?

319

: 00:22:48

Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, because I am

trying to encourage cross pollination.

320

: 00:22:52

And so, pollination is highly localized.

321

: 00:22:58

And the best way to ensure cross

pollination is if two varieties

322

: 00:23:02

are growing side by side.

323

: 00:23:04

Because when a bee is visiting

flowers, it doesn't go from here, way

324

: 00:23:09

over there, and then back to here.

325

: 00:23:11

It goes from here, to the next closest

flower, to the next closest flower.

326

: 00:23:16

So the closer we interplant things

that can cross pollinate, the more

327

: 00:23:22

likely they are to actually cross.

328

: 00:23:25

Carmen: So would that mean that

things that are self fertile you

329

: 00:23:29

would plant very close together

to try and encourage crossing?

330

: 00:23:32

Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, for example, beans

in my garden, they cross about 1 in 200.

331

: 00:23:40

They can cross like 1 in 20, if

they're growing in an ecosystem,

332

: 00:23:47

like by a swamp next to a forest

that has all kinds of pollinators

333

: 00:23:51

that are coming into the garden.

334

: 00:23:53

But out here in the desert , my

chances of cross pollination

335

: 00:23:56

are much less on, beans.

336

: 00:23:59

But my chances of cross

pollination, like on wheat, are

337

: 00:24:03

higher because lower humidity

favors cross pollination on wheat.

338

: 00:24:09

So, it's a mixed bag, but the

closer you plant things together,

339

: 00:24:13

the more likely they are to cross.

340

: 00:24:15

And, to go the other way about

it, if you want things not to

341

: 00:24:20

cross, plant them further apart.

342

: 00:24:24

For example, with my squash, I

tend to plant the orange squash

343

: 00:24:29

on one end of the row and the green

squash on the other end of the row.

344

: 00:24:34

So the oranges will mostly cross

pollinate with the oranges.

345

: 00:24:37

The greens will mostly cross

pollinate with the greens.

346

: 00:24:40

And then where they meet, I

end up with striped squash.

347

: 00:24:45

And so, we can go both

ways with our pollination.

348

: 00:24:48

Carmen: And what kind of traits

are you looking for in your squash?

349

: 00:24:52

Joseph Lofthouse: So, the number one

trait that I always select for, well,

350

: 00:24:57

there's two that I always select for.

351

: 00:24:59

First is productivity.

352

: 00:25:01

It has to produce fruit in my garden.

353

: 00:25:04

And the second is flavor.

354

: 00:25:06

It just has to taste

beautiful and delightful.

355

: 00:25:10

I inadvertently selected for squash

that are easy to cut, because I

356

: 00:25:16

was tasting every squash for years

before I saved seeds from it.

357

: 00:25:22

And if it was hard to cut, I

was just composting it rather

358

: 00:25:26

than saving seeds from it.

359

: 00:25:29

And that was totally inadvertent.

360

: 00:25:30

I didn't know I was doing it,

but when I realized it's like, oh

361

: 00:25:35

yeah, you get what you select for.

362

: 00:25:39

And then there are other traits show

up sometimes that might be interesting.

363

: 00:25:44

For example, one time I found a squash

that had a fuzzy skin, and it's like,

364

: 00:25:51

whoa, you know, what if the fuzz

kept a deer from eating it, or kept

365

: 00:25:57

a rat from eating it, or what if the

fuzz, irritated the squash bugs?

366

: 00:26:04

You know, and there's all kinds of

possibilities about things that you

367

: 00:26:08

might see that might be useful later on.

368

: 00:26:13

And I never did anything with that

squash, but it was interesting

369

: 00:26:18

to think about the possibilities.

370

: 00:26:21

Carmen: When you were starting

your, melon land race, did you

371

: 00:26:26

have all different colors or were

they all orange cantaloupe type?

372

: 00:26:29

Joseph Lofthouse: They were all

cantaloupe types that I started with.

373

: 00:26:33

Some green fleshed ones came

into the population at one point,

374

: 00:26:38

and later on I did a separate

population with green fleshed melons.

375

: 00:26:43

So, there was just a lot to explore

there, and I didn't ever explore

376

: 00:26:47

like the Armenian Cucumber types,

and I didn't explore the, what

377

: 00:26:53

they call them, Casabas types.

378

: 00:26:55

You know, so there would be a

lot that someone could do with

379

: 00:26:59

melons that I haven't ever done.

380

: 00:27:02

Carmen: What about the Solanaceae family?

381

: 00:27:04

Have you done much

playing around with them?

382

: 00:27:12

Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, so, the

most popular page on my website

383

: 00:27:18

is actually about growing

potatoes from pollinated seeds.

384

: 00:27:23

And that's been the most

popular page for like 15 years.

385

: 00:27:28

And, What you can get is you can

just get a lot of beautiful varieties

386

: 00:27:33

and colors and flavors that come

out of, out of those crosses.

387

: 00:27:38

My favorite solanaceae, ooh, big word,

388

: 00:27:46

is the tomatoes.

389

: 00:27:48

And I was trying to breed with tomatoes

and I was just having a dickens of a time.

390

: 00:27:55

And So I did a deep dive into the

genetics of tomatoes, and it turns out

391

: 00:28:01

that 95 percent of the genetics got left

in the wild when they were domesticated,

392

: 00:28:07

because a few tomato plants went from

the Andes Mountains up to Mexico, and

393

: 00:28:13

then a few plants went from Mexico

to Europe, then they sent tomatoes

394

: 00:28:19

from Europe to the rest of the world.

395

: 00:28:21

And each time that the tomatoes

traveled, they didn't take

396

: 00:28:27

their pollinators with them.

397

: 00:28:29

And so that encouraged them

to become self pollinating.

398

: 00:28:33

And they just shed all kinds of

genetic diversity that didn't

399

: 00:28:37

get taken with them as well.

400

: 00:28:39

And so, One day I was in my tomato

patch I was doing frost tolerance

401

: 00:28:44

trials, planting 30 varieties and

seeing which ones did the best

402

: 00:28:50

in the cold and with the frost.

403

: 00:28:51

And there was one tomato plant, anytime

I went to my garden, there was a

404

: 00:28:56

bumblebee on exactly that one plant.

405

: 00:29:00

And it got me thinking we could turn

tomatoes into a cross pollinating species

406

: 00:29:05

instead of a self pollinating species.

407

: 00:29:08

And it turns out that in the

Andes, they grow primarily

408

: 00:29:15

as cross pollinating species.

409

: 00:29:18

Not only cross pollinating,

but 100 percent cross

410

: 00:29:21

pollinating every single time.

411

: 00:29:24

And so those tomatoes that do that

are green fruited, and the flavor

412

: 00:29:31

is Not something you'd want to eat.

413

: 00:29:35

But!

414

: 00:29:36

So I crossed those tomatoes with domestic

tomatoes and, what I found was I found

415

: 00:29:44

amazing flavors and amazing aromas.

416

: 00:29:48

So, I thought I was going to do a project

to select for promiscuous flowers.

417

: 00:29:54

And yes, that's one of the

primary goals of the project.

418

: 00:29:58

But what I'm really chasing is fruits

that taste like guava, and, sea

419

: 00:30:07

urchin, and melon, and citrus.

420

: 00:30:10

Just these glorious, beautiful

flavors that make my heart sing.

421

: 00:30:14

And, uh, ha, ha, ha.

422

: 00:30:18

And, and so, the tomato project has

come to define my work as a farmer.

423

: 00:30:25

'Cause I'm getting older, my ability

and my ambition are failing, but the

424

: 00:30:31

Promiscuous Tomato Project just sings to

my heart and just brings me so much joy.

425

: 00:30:37

And so that's the one I just hang

on to with everything I have.

426

: 00:30:41

Carmen: What does the flower look like?

427

: 00:30:44

Joseph Lofthouse: Oh, so in a domestic

tomato, the flowers are about half

428

: 00:30:50

inch in diameter, just these little

things and they're pale colored.

429

: 00:30:55

Some of the promiscuous tomato flowers

are like an inch and three quarters

430

: 00:31:00

across, just these big flowers with

tremendous numbers of petals, and

431

: 00:31:05

they're brightly colored, and they have

the style, which is the part that's

432

: 00:31:10

receptive to pollen, is on the outside

of the flower, so it can attract, or

433

: 00:31:15

it can rub against the belly of a bee.

434

: 00:31:18

Oftentimes, a whole flower cluster

will open up one day, and there are

435

: 00:31:23

these big fist sized flower clusters

that are way up above the foliage

436

: 00:31:28

so the bees can really get to them.

437

: 00:31:31

They're just joyful and beautiful, besides

having all these flavors and aromas

438

: 00:31:35

that we'd never expect from a tomato.

439

: 00:31:38

Carmen: What happens

in terms of the color?

440

: 00:31:40

Joseph Lofthouse: So, I have been

selecting for orange colored tomatoes,

441

: 00:31:46

because when I do blind taste testing

with people, they almost invariably

442

: 00:31:51

prefer the flavors of the orange

tomatoes over any other color.

443

: 00:31:56

I think the orange color in the tomatoes

is due to beta carotene, and beta carotene

444

: 00:32:03

is converted to vitamin A in the body.

445

: 00:32:06

And so I think people just

inherently, their bodies inherently

446

: 00:32:12

know what's good for them.

447

: 00:32:13

And one time when we were doing a

taste testing, I thought I'd be a

448

: 00:32:17

smart aleck and I went and picked one

of the domestic tomatoes out of the

449

: 00:32:22

field and brought it in and cut it.

450

: 00:32:24

And after we tasted it, the guy

that was hosting us went to the

451

: 00:32:29

kitchen and got a rag and came and

washed the cutting board so that it

452

: 00:32:34

wouldn't contaminate the flavor of the

tomatoes we're going to taste next.

453

: 00:32:43

Carmen: What happened for size?

454

: 00:32:44

Joseph Lofthouse: I have been

selecting for tomatoes that are

455

: 00:32:47

about the size of a ping pong ball.

456

: 00:32:52

Call them saladettes or as

big as, four to six ounces.

457

: 00:32:59

And that is partly due to my

ecosystem because I have about

458

: 00:33:04

90 to 100 frost free days.

459

: 00:33:07

And so I have to select for tomatoes

that jump out of the ground.

460

: 00:33:12

They really grow fast and they ripen fast.

461

: 00:33:15

And the smaller tomatoes tend to do that

quicker than the great big tomatoes.

462

: 00:33:21

Someone in a warmer climate with longer

growing season could make other choices.

463

: 00:33:27

Carmen: It's quite a short growing season.

464

: 00:33:29

Joseph Lofthouse: Ha ha ha.

465

: 00:33:31

So, if I buy tomatoes from a

seed catalog, 95 percent of them

466

: 00:33:36

will fail for me because of the

shortness of the growing season.

467

: 00:33:41

Basically, I can grow tomatoes that the

seed catalogs call maybe up to 70 days.

468

: 00:33:50

But I'm better off with 55 or

60 day tomatoes, which leaves

469

: 00:33:55

me hardly any to choose from.

470

: 00:33:57

Carmen: In your initial planting

of squash, did you select

471

: 00:34:01

ones that were short season?

472

: 00:34:03

Joseph Lofthouse: What I find is

that the ecosystem does like 80

473

: 00:34:06

percent of the selection for me.

474

: 00:34:09

So the first year that I planted

butternut squash, I planted, oh, maybe 10

475

: 00:34:16

varieties, and only, like, two or three

of them actually produced fruit for me.

476

: 00:34:23

And my growing season

that year was 88 days.

477

: 00:34:28

And then, I think two years later,

the growing season was 84 days long.

478

: 00:34:34

And so the ecosystem selected heavy,

heavy, heavy for quick maturity.

479

: 00:34:41

And what that does when I send my seeds to

someplace like, down south, my plants jump

480

: 00:34:49

out of the ground, they grow like crazy,

they produce fruit, and then they die from

481

: 00:34:54

the diseases and the pests and whatever.

482

: 00:34:57

But they've already produced an

abundant harvest, so it doesn't matter.

483

: 00:35:01

And then down south they

can plant a second crop.

484

: 00:35:04

Carmen: Can you harvest the

seed from fruit that's not quite

485

: 00:35:07

mature in your first season?

486

: 00:35:09

Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, you can.

487

: 00:35:10

Seeds tend to be viable a long time

before they're totally mature.

488

: 00:35:17

And so you can harvest seeds from

very immature fruits, and they

489

: 00:35:23

still often will produce seeds.

490

: 00:35:26

And so, on my melons, that's what

happened the first year I planted them.

491

: 00:35:30

I harvested only immature melons.

492

: 00:35:33

But then, two years later, I

was harvesting melons weeks

493

: 00:35:38

before my fall frosts.

494

: 00:35:40

Carmen: So even though the parents

would have not made it through the

495

: 00:35:45

growing season, just by growing

them there, the genetics adapted?

496

: 00:35:50

Joseph Lofthouse: Well, some of

the parents did make it through.

497

: 00:35:54

And, like, 80 percent of the parents

didn't survive, didn't produce seeds.

498

: 00:35:59

I can't really look at a seed catalog

and trust that, that it's going

499

: 00:36:05

to actually apply to my garden.

500

: 00:36:08

And so, I just end up randomly trying

varieties and what survives, shows that

501

: 00:36:15

it was capable of surviving in my garden.

502

: 00:36:18

And then, you mix up the genetics

of those, and you give them another

503

: 00:36:22

chance, and some of them are

better, capable of surviving even

504

: 00:36:27

better than their parents did.

505

: 00:36:29

Carmen: And something else that you

mentioned is keeping the old seed and

506

: 00:36:32

reintroducing it from previous seasons.

507

: 00:36:34

Joseph Lofthouse: Yeah, and the reason

I do that is because the climate

508

: 00:36:40

here in the mountains is variable.

509

: 00:36:43

Some years we'll have drought,

some years we'll have extra rainy,

510

: 00:36:48

some years will be super hot,

some years will be kind of cool.

511

: 00:36:52

And I save seeds from multiple years so

that I tend to get an average of what

512

: 00:36:59

did good over all of those different

growing conditions, rather than having

513

: 00:37:04

my whole population shift towards the

wet loving group or the dry loving group.

514

: 00:37:11

Hedging my bets kind of deal.

515

: 00:37:13

Carmen: So would that be

from like two years previous

516

: 00:37:16

or what's the sort of process?

517

: 00:37:19

Joseph Lofthouse: well for

me I keep a jar of seeds.

518

: 00:37:22

Like 80 percent of that jar of

seeds will be new seeds and 20

519

: 00:37:27

percent will be from previous years.

520

: 00:37:30

But I don't, you know

I don't make a formula.

521

: 00:37:33

I don't try to control that

and be in charge of it.

522

: 00:37:37

I just make sure that there's some

older seed that's always hanging around.

523

: 00:37:42

Carmen: Does your population or your

plantation have to be really large

524

: 00:37:46

or can you scale a land race down?

525

: 00:37:48

Joseph Lofthouse: You can scale

a landrace down because we're

526

: 00:37:51

encouraging genetic diversity.

527

: 00:37:53

And the reason to have large

populations is because the crops

528

: 00:37:58

were so inbred that they were having

problems with being too inbred.

529

: 00:38:04

And In one cob of my sweet corn, there's

more genetic diversity than, like, 10,

530

: 00:38:12

000 acres worth of commercial sweet corn.

531

: 00:38:15

And, ha ha ha, and, and so, small

scale, people can really grow landraces

532

: 00:38:24

effectively, especially if you're sharing

seeds with your neighbors, if you're

533

: 00:38:29

allowing promiscuous pollination, If

you bring in a new variety once in a

534

: 00:38:36

while, then you can avoid those sort

of problems that inbreeding created

535

: 00:38:40

in the open pollinated seed movement.

536

: 00:38:45

Carmen: Touching back into

the Solanaceae for a second.

537

: 00:38:48

Have you done any with

tomatillos or ground cherries?

538

: 00:38:52

Joseph Lofthouse: Yes, I love

tomatillos because they have the

539

: 00:38:56

100 percent outcrossing trait.

540

: 00:38:59

And what that means is that when

somebody plants tomatillos in their

541

: 00:39:04

garden, They become a weed in just a

year or two, and they never go away.

542

: 00:39:12

You can't get rid of them.

543

: 00:39:14

And I would love for tomatoes to end up

with that same sort of breeding system.

544

: 00:39:19

And this last summer, I went on

a hike up in the mountains, and

545

: 00:39:26

we have a local ground cherry.

546

: 00:39:30

And I selected Well, not a bunch

of seeds, I worked really hard

547

: 00:39:35

for a few little hints of a seed.

548

: 00:39:38

But I'm growing those this

year and intending to introduce

549

: 00:39:41

those into my garden as well.

550

: 00:39:43

Carmen: I can't help but wonder

why there aren't more varieties

551

: 00:39:48

or more projects developing them.

552

: 00:39:52

Joseph Lofthouse: Well for me, I see

them everywhere because I wrote a

553

: 00:39:56

book and a movement started about it.

554

: 00:39:58

And so But, a bunch of my readers

got together and they made a non profit

555

: 00:40:06

organization called Going to Seed.

556

: 00:40:10

They came to my garden and made videos

about me talking about land race

557

: 00:40:16

gardening and people donated enough

money to make those videos free.

558

: 00:40:22

They made a, forum to talk about it.

559

: 00:40:27

the Cliff Family Foundation donated

like 25, 000 so that we could support

560

: 00:40:33

farmers in learning to grow this

way, and so about a dozen farmers are

561

: 00:40:40

developing land races of various species.

562

: 00:40:44

And so for me, I'm right in

the middle of everything, but

563

: 00:40:49

Carmen: you said that's goingtoseed...

564

: 00:40:52

Joseph Lofthouse: goingtoseed.org

565

: 00:40:54

Carmen: org.

566

: 00:40:55

I'll put that in the show notes.

567

: 00:40:57

Joseph Lofthouse: Thank you.

568

: 00:40:59

Carmen: Along with any other

links that you give me.

569

: 00:41:01

You also mentioned potatoes.

570

: 00:41:03

So, true seed potatoes.

571

: 00:41:08

Joseph Lofthouse: So, so, the

favorite potato that I ever found by

572

: 00:41:13

growing from seeds, the tubers were

about the size of a ping pong ball.

573

: 00:41:20

But each plant would produce like

a gallon of these little tubers.

574

: 00:41:26

And they were so beautiful to rinse

off and take to the farmer's market.

575

: 00:41:32

Carmen: neat.

576

: 00:41:33

What color were they?

577

: 00:41:35

Joseph Lofthouse: They were a red

potato with a white inside, but some

578

: 00:41:39

of the potatoes were just beautiful

like they'd be yellow inside with

579

: 00:41:45

a blue skin, or they'd be a white

inside with red streaks through them.

580

: 00:41:54

Just a whole bunch of diversity.

581

: 00:41:57

Carmen: When you started with

the potatoes, did you have

582

: 00:42:00

difficulty getting them to flower?

583

: 00:42:02

Joseph Lofthouse: Well, yes,

sorta, because potatoes are

584

: 00:42:08

typically grown by cloning and

every time you clone something,

585

: 00:42:12

it damages the DNA a little bit.

586

: 00:42:15

And so most of the potatoes that people

grow are not capable of producing flowers.

587

: 00:42:21

And so, we had to select for varieties

that were capable of producing flowers

588

: 00:42:27

in the first place, and then once

those start crossing with each other,

589

: 00:42:32

then they remember how to produce

flowers and they produce a lot of seed.

590

: 00:42:37

But, those first years of finding

varieties that can produce

591

: 00:42:41

seeds is kind of troubling.

592

: 00:42:44

The same thing happens with

Like garlic and onions.

593

: 00:42:49

If you've been growing a variety

that's a clone, it often

594

: 00:42:54

has forgotten how to flower.

595

: 00:42:56

But once they start crossing with each

other, then they remember how to flower.

596

: 00:43:02

And they flower more reliably.

597

: 00:43:04

And on onions, the reliable

flowering lasts for about 10 years.

598

: 00:43:11

And then they start to

forget how to flower again.

599

: 00:43:14

Carmen: That's pretty interesting.

600

: 00:43:15

What about spinach?

601

: 00:43:17

Joseph Lofthouse: Oh, spinach is nice

because it has male plants and female

602

: 00:43:21

plants, and so you could create your own

hybrids if you had two varieties and you

603

: 00:43:27

wanted to cross them with each other.

604

: 00:43:29

It'd just be a matter of watching

early in the season and chopping

605

: 00:43:33

out the female plants in one row and

the male plants in the other row.

606

: 00:43:39

Spinach is, for me, is one of those

crops where you plant ten varieties

607

: 00:43:46

and half of them are just going

to fail totally, and half of them

608

: 00:43:50

are going to be beautiful plants.

609

: 00:43:53

Carmen: How do you deal with things

like carrots and beets being biennial?

610

: 00:44:00

Joseph Lofthouse: It's hard, because

I live in a super cold climate, and so

611

: 00:44:06

I can't really leave them out in the

elements, and so I have to either mulch

612

: 00:44:14

them really heavily so that maybe they

survive and maybe they rot because of the

613

: 00:44:18

mulch, or I bring them inside and try to

keep them alive in a refrigerator, but

614

: 00:44:25

that takes up my space, or, you know,

in a garage, but that's kind of iffy,

615

: 00:44:30

and so the biennials are rough on me.

616

: 00:44:35

It would be nice if I could

select for varieties that

617

: 00:44:40

could handle the outside cold.

618

: 00:44:42

I have done that on a few things,

like I developed a variety of

619

: 00:44:47

kale that can survive my winters.

620

: 00:44:50

Then that makes the biennials

easier to deal with.

621

: 00:44:53

Carmen: In terms of pests,

you mentioned brassica family.

622

: 00:44:57

ha.

623

: 00:45:00

Is it just selecting for what can survive?

624

: 00:45:03

Joseph Lofthouse: Yeah, and I don't do

any kind of spraying or poisoning or

625

: 00:45:08

killing of the pests, because I consider

them to be blessings to my garden.

626

: 00:45:14

They're teaching my plants how

to be strong, how to survive, how

627

: 00:45:19

to collaborate with each other.

628

: 00:45:22

And so I hardly even know that I have

a pest in my garden or a disease.

629

: 00:45:28

I remember one time a lady asked if

she could grow a little garden in my

630

: 00:45:35

field, and I'm like, sure, go ahead.

631

: 00:45:37

So she bought some squash from the

seed company and she planted it and

632

: 00:45:43

the squash bugs just pounced on it and

all kinds of diseases started affecting

633

: 00:45:48

the foliage and it was just terrible.

634

: 00:45:52

And.

635

: 00:45:53

I know they say you're not supposed to

laugh at other people's misery, but I

636

: 00:45:58

was so happy and joyful that her plants

just died like that because it, it

637

: 00:46:05

showed me that those pests and diseases

are in my garden, but they've learned

638

: 00:46:11

to live in harmony with the plants.

639

: 00:46:14

And so it was just a,

beautiful experience for me.

640

: 00:46:19

And I'm sorry for the

plant's misery, but laughs

641

: 00:46:24

Carmen: Even things like the

caterpillars on the brassicas?

642

: 00:46:27

Joseph Lofthouse: I don't really

notice much of a problem with them.

643

: 00:46:32

I know that if I grow red brassicas,

that they're more resistant to the

644

: 00:46:37

caterpillars because the the predator

can see the green caterpillars on the

645

: 00:46:45

red cabbage, and it's less of a problem.

646

: 00:46:48

Carmen: Would you also be looking for

less wrinkly kale, that sort of thing?

647

: 00:46:52

Joseph Lofthouse: Yeah, well, for

example, on spinach one time I, I

648

: 00:46:57

took a puckery leaf spinach to my

sister and she cooked it and it was

649

: 00:47:04

totally filled with little wireworms.

650

: 00:47:08

And I was so horrified and so I

started selecting for spinach that had

651

: 00:47:14

perfectly smooth leaves so that there

would be no place for the bugs to hide.

652

: 00:47:19

I imagine that similar types of

strategies can be used with the

653

: 00:47:23

brassicas and the cabbage moths.

654

: 00:47:26

Carmen: How do these plants

adjust to your style of gardening?

655

: 00:47:31

What traits have you noticed that emerge

that really show your style of gardening?

656

: 00:47:36

Joseph Lofthouse: Well, I can

think of a tomato as an example.

657

: 00:47:41

Because I grow tomatoes

sprawling on the ground.

658

: 00:47:46

And they're just in the dirt.

659

: 00:47:47

I don't try to protect them or trellis

them or not even really weed them.

660

: 00:47:52

And so a neighbor asked me how I could

grow tomatoes that are so clean and,

661

: 00:47:57

and I'm like, that's just how they grow.

662

: 00:48:00

But then I started paying attention, and

I had been saving tomato seeds only from

663

: 00:48:06

the tomatoes that were beautiful tomatoes.

664

: 00:48:10

I wasn't saving seeds from those that

had got in the dirt and rotted, and turns

665

: 00:48:16

out that the tomato vines had developed

an arching architecture to their vines.

666

: 00:48:22

So the vine would go up and make a

little bridge kind of thing that the

667

: 00:48:26

fruits could hang up off the ground.

668

: 00:48:29

And then that kept them clean

and it kept them from rotting.

669

: 00:48:32

And I didn't intend to do that.

670

: 00:48:35

It's just one of those things that

they adapted to my way of doing things.

671

: 00:48:42

And I find that over and over again,

the plants are figuring out my way of

672

: 00:48:48

doing things and adapting to it even

if I'm not consciously aware of what

673

: 00:48:53

I'm doing or what they're adapting to.

674

: 00:48:57

For example, on my beans, because I do the

stomping harvest, pretty much, any bean

675

: 00:49:06

that is like green when I do that stomp

, I'm not going to save seeds from it.

676

: 00:49:11

And so I've inadvertently selected

for seeds or for beans that I can

677

: 00:49:17

harvest all on one day, they're ready

before my fall frost or right with it.

678

: 00:49:24

So I inadvertently selected for

uniformity of harvest time for example.

679

: 00:49:31

Where somebody that was growing a

pole bean and they were harvesting

680

: 00:49:36

one pod at a time, they would be

selecting for a longer harvest window.

681

: 00:49:42

Carmen: And if you come across a

particular fruit, whether it be a

682

: 00:49:48

melon or a squash, and it's just, or

a tomato, and it's just so delicious.

683

: 00:49:55

Do you isolate it or do you

continue it in the landrace?

684

: 00:49:59

Joseph Lofthouse: So typically what

I'll do is I'll save seeds from that

685

: 00:50:03

separately, and I'll plant more of

that next year, or I'll plant it in

686

: 00:50:07

a corner of the garden so I can see

how it's going to perform, if the

687

: 00:50:13

beautiful flavor is still there.

688

: 00:50:15

And if I like that a lot, then I might

save more seeds from that next year and

689

: 00:50:21

less from the ones I don't like as much.

690

: 00:50:24

So, yeah, I'm constantly paying

attention to what I love and

691

: 00:50:29

encouraging more of that.

692

: 00:50:31

Carmen: You mention in your

book, singing to your plants.

693

: 00:50:35

Joseph Lofthouse: Uh huh.

694

: 00:50:38

Carmen: Would you mind,

perhaps sharing a song?

695

: 00:50:41

Joseph Lofthouse: I would love to.

696

: 00:50:42

So I'm going to switch my microphone.

697

: 00:50:50

I often sing this song to my plants

in my garden, and it reminds me

698

: 00:50:56

that I am part of the ecosystem,

and the ecosystem is part of me.

699

: 00:51:01

And it goes like this.

700

: 00:51:04

May all beings, everywhere,

all be happy and free.

701

: 00:51:13

In Sanskrit, the words are

Lokah Samastah Sukinho Bhavantu

702

: 00:51:37

May all beings everywhere

all be happy and free.

703

: 00:51:47

May all beings everywhere

all be happy and free.

704

: 00:51:59

May all beings everywhere

all be happy and free.

705

: 00:52:10

Lokah Samastah Sukinho Bhavantu

706

: 00:52:21

Lokah Samastah Sukinho Bhavantu

707

: 00:52:33

Lokah Samastah Sukinho Bhavantu

708

: 00:52:44

May all beings everywhere

all be happy and free.

709

: 00:52:55

May all beings everywhere

all be happy and free.

710

: 00:53:17

Carmen: Thank you.

711

: 00:53:20

Joseph Lofthouse: Thank you, Carmen.

712

: 00:53:22

Carmen: So I've mentioned

your book a number of times.

713

: 00:53:24

Joseph Lofthouse: Mm-Hmm.

714

: 00:53:25

Carmen: Would you mind letting

people know where they can find it?

715

: 00:53:29

How they can find you?

716

: 00:53:32

Joseph Lofthouse: So, I spend

most of my online time talking

717

: 00:53:36

about adaptation gardening, land

race gardening, at goingtoseed.

718

: 00:53:41

org.

719

: 00:53:42

My book is available wherever books

are sold, including, like, Amazon,

720

: 00:53:49

and Barnes Noble, and Target.

721

: 00:53:52

Landrace race Gardening, Food

security through biodiversity

722

: 00:53:58

and promiscuous pollination.

723

: 00:54:01

It could also be subtitled like

how to grow food without buying

724

: 00:54:06

seeds, fertilizers, or poisons.

725

: 00:54:13

Carmen: when you're talking about tasting

everything and how you can taste poisons.

726

: 00:54:17

Plants do produce these poisons, but

you taste every plant or every fruit

727

: 00:54:23

that you're going to save seed from.

728

: 00:54:25

Joseph Lofthouse: I made myself so

sick one day by tasting lettuce.

729

: 00:54:34

Carmen: So thank you very, very much for,

730

: 00:54:38

for joining me.

731

: 00:54:39

Actually, I do have one other

little question about the squash.

732

: 00:54:42

So I do have a hybrid that

has naturally emerged.

733

: 00:54:44

I have a tendency to let things self seed

and when they come up I let them grow.

734

: 00:54:49

And I had a hybrid that came up in a

year that my squash were absolutely

735

: 00:54:53

decimated by the squash vine borer.

736

: 00:54:57

And it came up on the compost pile

and it looks like it's a cross

737

: 00:55:00

between moschata and probably maxima.

738

: 00:55:06

Joseph Lofthouse: Okay.

739

: 00:55:07

Carmen: And the vines were hard, but the

fruit looked a lot more like a maxima.

740

: 00:55:12

And the flesh was absolutely

delicious, and it produced so many

741

: 00:55:16

fruit when all of the others died.

742

: 00:55:19

But there were barely

any seeds in the fruit.

743

: 00:55:23

So I saved them all, and I've

been planting them out for the

744

: 00:55:26

next two years, but I haven't

gotten that trait to come back.

745

: 00:55:32

Joseph Lofthouse: yeah, so, interspecies

hybrids are often not very fertile.

746

: 00:55:39

I've seen that a few times when

I've tried making those crosses.

747

: 00:55:44

If you ever find an offspring that has

that little thin vine that will resist

748

: 00:55:49

the borers, and it has the beautiful

flavor of the maxima, then woo hoo!

749

: 00:55:55

Right.

750

: 00:55:57

Carmen: If you can get it to come

back in the future generations,

751

: 00:56:00

that was the problem that I had.

752

: 00:56:02

I keep trying.

753

: 00:56:03

Joseph Lofthouse: Offspring tend

to resemble their parents and

754

: 00:56:05

their grandparents, but sometimes

the trait skips a generation.

755

: 00:56:11

Carmen: So I just have to keep trying

756

: 00:56:13

Joseph Lofthouse: Yeah.

757

: 00:56:13

There is a squash that's an interspecies

hybrid called Tetsuka Buto, which is

758

: 00:56:22

sold by Pine Tree Garden Seeds, and

that is halfway in between a moschata

759

: 00:56:28

and a maxima already, and So that

might be a place for you to look.

760

: 00:56:33

Carmen: To bring that one into my race.

761

: 00:56:35

Joseph Lofthouse: huh.

762

: 00:56:38

Carmen: Well, thanks again.

763

: 00:56:39

I really appreciated the conversation.

764

: 00:56:40

It's been lovely.

765

: 00:56:42

Joseph Lofthouse: Thank you, Carmen.

766

: 00:56:43

Carmen: Thanks for listening.

767

: 00:56:45

If there's anyone that you would like to

hear included in the Solanaceae series,

768

: 00:56:49

please don't hesitate to let me know.

769

: 00:56:51

I always love hearing your thoughts,

comments, and inspirations.

770

: 00:56:55

Just head over to CarmenPorter.

771

: 00:56:56

com to connect.

772

: 00:56:58

Happy garden dreaming.